I appreciate this Christian guy’s willingness to talk about his viewpoint. It is definitely possible that things just aren’t always completely black and white. My greatest desire is to help Christian women become the godly women God desires them to be and to see them in beautiful, God-honoring romantic relationships according to God’s will and timing. I also desire to see Christian women honoring the leadership of their men and respect their men even while dating. (This also means that we don’t try to control our men, manipulate them or try to force our way on them). And I want to see Christian women sharing their feelings and desires in respectful ways with the men they are interested in.
Dating is not mentioned in the Bible – there was no such relationship back then! So, sometimes it can get a bit dicey trying to figure out a “godly” way to approach dating today. I’m sure there is more than one godly approach. I’m sure some things work for some people that wouldn’t work for others. I am NOT the Holy Spirit. And I am not infallible. My prayer is that no one EVER puts my advice (or any human’s suggestions) above the work and direction of God’s Spirit working in them. I hope to accurately present what godly guys out there think, feel and need. I am very thankful for the men who share their hearts with us. I’d love for us to have a discussion about some of these important topics together! I also hope to accurately present an approach that would be honoring to God and to Christian men.
FROM A CHRISTIAN SINGLE MAN
I regret that what I’m about to say will fly directly in the face of
much of what this blog argues in favor of. Please know that I mean it
with no disrespect.
I am 23 years old. Six weeks ago, a godly, Christ-honoring girl asked
me point blank if I wanted a relationship with her (I said yes). And
in all honesty, I’m very happy that she did. I do not think she was
‘wrong’ to not wait for me to ask. So far, our dating relationship has
been very strong; we encourage each other, build each other up in
Christ, and always point each other toward God. For the record, we are
both complementarians.
Sometimes, a girl desires a romantic relationship with a guy, but more
often, she only wants to be friends. And my problem is that it’s all
but impossible for many guys like me to know which is which. We aren’t
mind readers. On two separate occasions, I spent many months trying to
pursue a girl who ultimately turned out to be totally uninterested in
a romantic relationship. Both of them, during the time that I tried to
pursue them, would occasionally do things like compliment me on my
eyes, or send me unsolicited texts. So, you can understand my
bewilderment when I come to this blog, and read that if you’re
romantically interested in a guy, you shouldn’t even do those things!
I would additionally note that my younger brother also once received a
lot of seemingly promising hints from a girl who ultimately only
wanted friendship.
Conversely, the girl I am now dating gave me very little clue that she
was interested in a relationship before outright asking me. If
anything, it seemed to me that she would occasionally, and subtly hint
the exact opposite. Would I have eventually asked her myself? My plan
was to eventually ask her, but if weeks kept passing without any clear
indications of interest, I might not have. I lost a lot of time going
after the two girls mentioned in the previous paragraph (just to be
clear, I bear neither any ill-will, and I’m still friends with both).
I really would prefer not to spend weeks or months on end trying to
discern someone’s true intention, especially when there’s plenty of
reason to believe that it’s only friendship. Let me say it again –
guys are not mind readers!
Bottom line, I really wish Christian girls would make their intentions
more obvious. And I don’t think that makes them any less ‘attractive.’
Personally, I very much appreciate a girl who is willing to be open
and forthright – THAT is something that indicates respect to me. And
it’s concealed motives and agendas that turn me off. I know it’s a fun
fairytale fantasy to sit back and wait for a guy to pursue you, but
there are too many girls out there only interested in friendship for
this to be a workable option for some guys. And many of those girls
who are only interested in friendship can sure seem like they’re
interested in something more, like the two I tried to pursue.
Perhaps my own experiences in life were atypical. Still, they’re the
only experiences I know.
LADIES
If you believe God desires you to approach a man this boldly and directly – PLEASE be sure to accept whatever answer he gives graciously. I do think this kind of approach will probably be more of the exception rather than the rule. It still may be wise to give a guy time to approach you before you use a direct method – I pray God might give each of you wisdom for each situation! I would still say – don’t chase him or hunt him down or try to explain why he should go out with you. If you do use a bold approach, I believe you would still be wise to let him do the initiating with emails/phone calls/texts. My biggest concern is that you don’t take over and try to lead him or force him deeper into a relationship or commitment before he is ready. Be very careful not to try to MAKE him do what you want and not to pressure or force him into doing what you want him to do.
Mark Driscoll says, “Ladies, never chase a man. If you start chasing him, you’ll be chasing him the rest of your life.”
It’s one thing to clearly and plainly ask him about his intentions or to try to communicate that you are a willing soul if he is interested in you – and to allow him time to make his own decision and get back with you when he is ready to answer. But it is another thing to try to take over a man’s life and control him. Being controlling, argumentative, critical, bossy, condescending, self-righteous, pushy, impatient, rude or manipulating with guilt are NOT EVER appropriate ways for Christian ladies to treat their men (or anyone else!). Once you do ask him about his intentions (check out Mark Driscoll’s video), give him time and space and allow him to make his own decisions, please!
What if the guy turns you down or doesn’t respond? I vote for giving him space. He knows you are interested – if he doesn’t pursue you at that point – you would probably be killing any chance of a relationship starting to be that direct more than once.
Let’s have a discussion about ways women can honor a man’s leadership in a dating relationship from the beginning all the way through engagement – hearing from the men and the women.
MY SUGGESTIONS
I usually suggest that women not be the first one to call/text/email, not ask the guy out on a date first, not decide when the relationship is “official,” not kiss him first, not say “I love you” first, not pressure the guy or try to force him to speed up the relationship and not to ask about when/if he might propose.
Talk to the guy. Introduce yourself. Smile and flirt (in a godly way, not a sexual way). Let him know you are interested. Don’t try to make him completely read your mind.
Pray and seek God’s wisdom and direction!!
Ashley@ Stay-At-Home Daughter
April 10, 2013
Very interesting article. For myself I don’t feel comfortable initiating a romantic relationship. If I am interested in a guy I try to make that very clear with my actions and the way I converse with him. It’s a hard balance, not being flirtatious but also encouraging a man to pursue you if that is your desire. I don’t want a guy to ever have to guess what I’m thinking if I am really interested.
If a guy doesn’t seem to notice me and I’d like to get to know him better sometimes I will comunicate this to my dad and he will talk with the young man if he sees fit. That can be very helpful at times.
peacefulwife
April 10, 2013
Ashley,
I actually LOVE your approach – and I wish that dads were all as involved as yours is. To me, it could be extremely helpful for a girl to have her dad’s help. Thank you for the wonderful comment! I know many Christian girls have a rule that their parents don’t allow them to call guys and some dads require young men to ask the dad’s permission before they can date/court the daughter.
seventiesjason
April 10, 2013
Peaceful……I think it depends on the situation. Remember we’re in faith, and at church to focus on Christ, grow, and learn and become that “great husband or wife” if we turn it into a place where everyone is “plainly stating they like this girl or that guy” well, I don’t know about that either. It’s a balance, there is a time and place for everything.
Maybe a shy guy (like myself) who has never dated….it may take a girl to outright say, pleasantly and with smiles of “Hey, when you gonna ask me out?” or something like this. Maybe a girl who does want more from a guy might have to do what the article said of giving “concrete” cues that she likes him. I do agree we are not mind readers. In the secular world there are so many cues evidently “If she’s playing with her hair on a Tuesday while looking at you, and pointing her toe towards you, it means she’s open to an advance.”
Huh? How does a man and especially a Christian one read into something like that, or even learn that????? Women in church do need to shine the “Christ” that is in them to a guy they like. That probably is the best way. What is this “Christ” inside them? God’s word say it is the “fruit of the spirit” and when you’re following Jesus and serving in a joyful manner…it shows. Take that glow from God and let the guy you like see it.
Godly leadership? So many say they are “leaders” in the church today but from my short time I notice it is in word only. Actual leadership means making tough decisions, and taking responsibilities for your actions in leadership in a Christ-like manner. Hard to do. Easy to say.
Romantically I honestly cannot answer.
What I wish Christian women understood? We’re not all the same. We are just as different as the brightness and pattern of the stars in the sky. God made us men with different gifts, skills, and insights. This insight isn’t reserved just for women and little children. This isn’t me talking like a ‘Mister Rogers Neighborhood” episode. This is truth. Did Jesus play tackle football?
What do real men do? Do they play only contact sports? Are they only good at math? Do they only major in the hard sciences? D they make lots of money? Do they hate Mozart and only love to shoot guns? Do they leave Jane Austen to the chicks? Does the Bible say anything about this? No?
Then it needs to be stopped being put out there to be a Christian man in church today you must be and behave in a certain cultural norm of manhood in North American culture. We as Christians (men and women) are supposed to be set-apart from this world!!!!
Remember our Savior wept!
peacefulwife
April 11, 2013
Jason,
I absolutely love your comment!
I agree – there is no one set of absolute rules that apply 100% of the time. It would sure be easier if there were! But in our culture today, there is no “standard” way of beginning a relationship. When I look back in history, there were often societal norms and culturally accepted etiquette. A potential “suitor” would ask permission from a girl’s father to court her. There were always chaperones. The couple would address each other often by their formal names, “Miss Smith” “Mr. Jones.” And most people married before they were even 20 years old.
Today, there are so many possible ways to think and do things and the culture has turned to chaos. It see where it could definitely be overwhelming to try to figure out how to approach a guy/girl as a believer today. Some people plan to “court.” Some people “date.” Some people want to wait to hold hands or kiss until marriage. Some people through everything in God’s Word completely out the window. It’s crazy trying to navigate the single scene (or it sure looks that way from my perspective)!
And I agree – there are different personalities to consider.
I LOVE this quote! 🙂 That one made me laugh so hard.
“In the secular world there are so many cues evidently “If she’s playing with her hair on a Tuesday while looking at you, and pointing her toe towards you, it means she’s open to an advance.”
I think a visible mark of godly leadership is a willingness to be a servant to others and particularly to those in need. A girl could look at your life and see your leadership at church and with scouts. It could be more difficult with younger men who haven’t had much of an opportunity to lead yet. I also believe a godly leader will make selfless decisions, looking out for what is best for others over himself. I like your definition of leadership.
To me, it is easy to define leadership of a husband in marriage – or easier, at least – than it is to define it at the very beginning of a romantic relationship. Of course, I would want to see a Christian man be respectful towards a woman, to be gentle, not to try to rush her, not to take advantage of her, to treat her with honor, to care about her feelings, to listen to her, to want to know her heart. I would like to see a Christian man seek God first in everything and desire God’s greatest glory in the relationship.
But what is more clear cut in my mind is the girl’s behavior. I don’t want to see Christian women being controlling, nagging, bossy, critical, pushy, demanding, needy, desperate, contentious, argumentative, prideful (“I’m always right”),acting entitled or trying to force a man into a commitment or into marriage. That kind of attitude is definitely extremely toxic to any kind of romantic relationship. I do want to see Christian women being polite, respectful, friendly, kind, tactful, thoughtful, gentle, peaceful and generally easy to get along with.
“What I wish Christian women understood? We’re not all the same. We are just as different as the brightness and pattern of the stars in the sky. God made us men with different gifts, skills, and insights.”
What a beautiful point.
I hope you might allow me to use your comment as a post. Great stuff, Jason!
m
April 10, 2013
Sometimes I have wondered why don’t Christian men get to the punch and just ask someone out. I don’t think you need to be 100% sure that someone will say yes. If you have talked to a girl a few times and she seems like someone you would be interested in, just ask her out. This is one area where I think alot of Christians seriously over think everything. It is a date, not a marriage proposal. I have never asked a guy on a date, but I have gone up to people and introduced myself and I’m a very shy person. I feel like if I can do it, anyone can do it.
seventiesjason
April 10, 2013
M…..True. Yes. Agreed….but what about a small church? A man steps up and asks a woman out on a date. She gives a polite no. Then what? In a small church, a guy usually has to be 100% sure, or it will turn into the following: All of her friends are now off limits for him to ask or even consider because it is a small church. Everyone now knows that the guy asked this one girl out. Now he has to wait for her to ‘maybe’ grow on him, or change her mind about him, and then maybe date him.
Many women in church too…..when asked DO say no. I have seen this a few times already. You said yourself it isn’t a marriage proposal….why then do many women “reject” an offer for just a date to get to know a guy?
If it wasn’t a problem, we wouldn’t be here now talking about this 😉
peacefulwife
April 11, 2013
Jason,
Thanks for sharing a guy’s perspective. I agree that it would be even more difficult in a small church.
peacefulwife
April 11, 2013
M,
Maybe the guys can answer this better than I can. But I believe they are often very concerned about rejection – especially if they have been repeatedly rejected before.
I am glad that you introduce yourself to people. I think that is important! Some women think that letting the guy lead means not talking to men, smiling at them or introducing yourself. I don’t think that will work! Being friendly and showing that you are receptive is a great idea!
jorocheleau
April 10, 2013
PW: I don’t think you’ve been wrong at all. Women in general are so quick to jump to conclusions — Scripture clearly tells us to guard our hearts [Psalm 4:23], and it was Jane Austen who said, “A lady’s imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony in a moment.” A godly man who seeks to protect the women around him, not only his family and friends, but other Christian sisters, will hopefully be aware of these tendencies and also guard their own hearts. I believe it’s SO important for the man to take the lead after he has sought the will of God; likewise, it’s crucial for the woman to respond after she’s sought the will of God. There’s a lot more to all of this [which is why I very much enjoy reading your blog], and I can’t fully express what I mean…just know that I agree with you and what God’s laid on your heart to share with others. I can’t speak into this young man’s post [and it’s great that he’s willing to share], but I know from my own experience just how a woman taking the lead sets a trend that’s hard to overcome. And it all comes back to the heart’s motives. Why is the woman asking to make things official and move forward? Is it because she’s truly taken the time to go to the Lord or is she scared of being alone? [Again, sharing from previous experience.]
Ashley: I too would love to have a dad like yours!! 🙂
Jason: Great to hear your insight, and you’re right: each person’s unique, both men and women. It’s good to be reminded that to be a real man, a guy doesn’t have to fit a certain mold. But I might argue that real men do make decisions and take risks…which involves taking the lead. 🙂
M: I agree with you — more men need to stand up and ask women out. But I also agree with Jason, more women need to be willing to go out on a date or two with men who might not seem like their type.
Great thought-provoking post, thanks!
peacefulwife
April 11, 2013
Jorocheleau,
I appreciate your comment so much! You bring up some really important points.
– Women definitely can QUICKLY jump ahead in their minds to marriage. I’d like to see the ladies SLOW DOWN and be in the moment a lot more, savoring the present and not trying to figure out the future. God is already there. He is sovereign. We don’t have to orchestrate everything and try to force things to work out or control everything ourselves. Thankfully!
– I am DEFINITELY concerned about a woman could easily set a pattern of taking initiative and control that may become the foundation of the relationship – and the farther she goes into the relationship being the main initiator and decision maker – the more difficult it would be for the guy to begin to lead.
– If a woman truly believes God desires her to approach a man boldly and directly – I would still very much encourage her then to back off and allow him to make decisions for himself. If she attempts to force him to do what she wants, she will certainly destroy the relationship. I like what Laura Doyle says “The Surrendered Wife” – “Women can either have control or intimacy. We can’t have both.” (She is talking about intimacy on any level – spiritual/emotional/sexual in marriage – but I believe this applies in dating, too.)
– I also agree that the woman’s motives in this situation are extremely key. In this particular situation – it appears to me that this woman handled things very well. But for other women, I think it is important to do a heart check. Has she made this man an idol? Has she made being in a relationship/marriage an idol? Is she truly listening to God and seeking His face and trusting His leadership and wisdom? Does she trust God, or is she trusting in herself to try to make things happen the way she thinks they should?
Thanks for the great discussion!
m
April 10, 2013
Seventiesjason, I’m not really sure what you would do in that situation. It probably wouldn’t be a good idea to ask out multiple women in a small church. But it still wouldn’t hurt to ask. If a church is really small, you can always join a bible study or a small group at another church to meet more people. Maybe it’s just me, but I always feel like everyone makes this too complicated. There have been times when l could tell that one of my guy friends liked me, but they never asked me out. I would have said yes if they did. I just see that happening alot and I think more people could take initiative. I think when people take forever to ask someone out they put so much pressure on themselves. Sometimes I think some men will pine away for a woman and get his heart set and if she turns him down, he is crushed. I say just take a chance. I have thought this for years and I know that I am not the only one.
In His Image
May 20, 2013
Hmmm. I’ve never thought that much of Mark Driscoll.
That said, I think I probably agree with him here.
A girl shouldn’t waste her time pursuing a guy who is clearly not interested in her — that will likely only turn him further off her. The established Biblical pattern is that it is the prospective husband who seeks a prospective wife (just as Christ picks His Bride and draws her to Him: He chooses us — we don’t naturally choose Him).
…But a girl can certainly indicate to a guy that she’s open to being pursued (assuming she’s serious about being ‘caught’ at the end of it, rather than just enjoying the attention and associated benefits with no intention of accepting the poor fellow). Guys these days have a very hard time working out whether or not a girl is interested: part of the problem is that the church itself has failed to give good teaching on romance and courtship, despite the destruction of the latter by our godless culture. There really should be some sort of clear green light that a Christian girl can give a Christian guy to let him know that his overtures will be welcome rather than unwanted. Chances are he does need some encouragement.
@M:
I agree that it’s such a pity. But being rejected by a girl is pretty crushing for a guy (unless he’s a player, in which case he’ll just shrug and move onto the next one). You say that you’ve never asked anyone out, and so have never been rejected. Introducing yourself to people (even if you’re shy) is far removed from the risk of opening your heart to someone and risking a heart-breaking reply. …And why, if you knew that your guy friend was interested in you and wanted to go out with you — and you were happy to go out with him — didn’t you subtly let him know that he’d be pushing at an open door? Why watch his nerve fail so unhappily? I don’t understand…
Interesting post, anyway. I like your site, April: keep up the good work…
peacefulwife
May 21, 2013
Thank you for sharing your insights and wisdom, In His IMage.
I want to see the Christian single culture change – and become very separate from the world, God-honoring, and to have some more methodical way of establishing courtship seems like a fantastic idea to me.
I pray that God might work in His body to give His people wisdom to approach this difficult issue in a more productive, healthy, Christ-honoring, marriage-honoring, masculinity and femininity-honoring way!